RetroWARTHINK 013: MG34/42 vs. BAR SELFAR, MG34/42 vs. the Bren LMG: the Winners, Please?

Russian SVT-40 SARs

The end of WW1 had the victorious Allies stuck in 1918 time with both bad bolt-action rifles and Light Machine Guns (LMGs). The British knew the drum-fed, cumbersome Lewis LMG had to be replaced and chose the fantastic Bren LMG fed by top-feed 30-round magazines but absurdly surrounded them with bolt-action SMLEs when the simple Howell Automatic Rifle (HAR) adaptation would make them into Semi-Automatic Rifles (SARs). The French were like the British and got a good top-feed, Mle 1924 LMG--but absurdly kept bolt-action rifles. 

WTF? No HBA, No SARs

The Russians got a 47-round, pan-feed LMG, the DP, the Japanese the Nambu Type 97 and the Italians the 10-round, Stripper Clip Loaded (SCL) Breda-30--all surrounded unwisely by lots of bolt-action riflemen.. Conversely, the Americans knew their bolt-action, Springfield rifles sucked and replaced them with 8-shot, M1 Garand SARs--but thought their 20-round bottom feed, no barrel-change, Browning Automatic Rifles (BARs) were somehow AOK as LMGs when actually they are SELective Fire Automatic Rifles (SELFARs).  

When the Germans attacked in 1939, they had the better MG34 and MG42 belt-fed LMGs surrounded by their own idiotic bolt-action, Kar 98 riflemen. The Allies did not counter the MG34/MG42 with their own belt-fed LMG in their rifle squads throughout WW2--resulting in a needless global bloodbath. Even with M1 Garand SARs, American infantry lost 110, 000 dead compared to just 6, 000 dead men who operated from tracked, armored tanks. It was like enough of the lessons of WW1 were not learned.  

  

Those Godless, atheistic Russian Commies Had Hard Body Armor (HBA) for their Tank Rider Infantry in WW2; the Christian Everyone-is-Important Allies Did NOT!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_42

The German tactical doctrine of the era based a squad's firepower on the general-purpose machine gun in the light machine gun role so that the role of the rifleman was largely to carry ammunition and provide covering fire for the machine gunners. The advantage of the general purpose machine gun concept was that it added greatly to the overall volume of fire that could be put out by a squad-sized unit.[15][16] This meant that German forces deployed far more machine guns per equivalent-sized unit than the Allies,[citation needed] and that Allied troops assaulting a German position almost invariably faced the firepower of the MG 42. It was possible for operating crews to lay down a nearly non-stop barrage of fire, pausing only when the barrel had to be replaced. This allowed the MG 42 to tie-up significantly larger numbers of enemy troops. The Americans and the British trained their troops to take cover from the fire of an MG 42, and assault the position during the small time window of barrel replacement, which took around 4 to 7 seconds (estimated).

The Allied nations squad tactical doctrines of World War II centered on the rifleman, with the machine gun serving a support role, and they utilised weapons with cyclic fire rates of typically 450–600 rounds per minute. The American military had standardized a semi-automatic rifle in 1936 (the M1 Garand) that could be effectively fired more rapidly than the preceding bolt-action rifles. The Allied nations had machine guns with similar rates of fire, but mounted them almost exclusively in aircraft, where the fleeting opportunities for firing made such high rates necessary. The only similar Allied weapon was the Vickers K aircraft gun, and that was used by ground forces only in specialized circumstances.

A German infantry Gruppe (squad) at the start of the war consisted of ten men; a non-commissioned officer or Unteroffizier squad leader, deputy squad leader, a three-man machine gun team (machine gunner, assistant gunner/loader and ammunition carrier) and five riflemen. As personal small arms the squad leader was issued a rifle or as of around 1941 a submachine gun, the machine gunner and his assistant were issued pistols and the deputy squad leader, ammunition carrier and the riflemen were issued rifles. The riflemen carried additional ammunition, hand grenades, explosive charges or a machine gun tripod as required and provided security and covering fire for the machine gun team.[17][18] Two of the standard issue bolt-action Karabiner 98k rifles in the squad could be replaced with semi-automatic Gewehr 43 rifles and occasionally, StG 44 assault rifles could be used to re-arm the whole squad, besides the machine-gun.

Kar98 with 40-round Trench-Clearing Magazine: Why Didn't we Do the Same with our Bolt-Action Rifles, too?

The German military kept issuing Karabiner 98k bolt-action rifles and did experiment with semi-automatic rifles throughout World War II. They fielded the Gewehr 41 series of which fewer than 150,000 were built, and the Gewehr 43/Karabiner 43 series of which 402,713 were built. They also introduced their first assault rifle in 1943 – the MP43 / MP44 / StG 44 series, producing 425,977 of these. But the Karabiner 98k was made in far greater numbers - over 14,600,000 - and due to the relatively limited production of the semi-automatic and assault rifles, the bolt-action Karabiner remained the primary service weapon until the last days of World War II, and was manufactured until the surrender in May 1945.

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LMG Winners: the MG34/42

One must conclude the 50-round drum to 250-round, belt-fed German MG34/MG42s won their 1939-1941 infantry duels until the advent of every American rifleman with a 8-shot M1 Garand SAR starting in 1942 were able to flank the German squad's inferior bolt-action Kar98 riflemen. By the time the Germans realized their bolt-action riflemen mistake, it was too late as they were over-run by lots of Russian Tank Riders wearing rifle-bullet-resistant, Hard Body Armor and PPSh 41 Sub-Machine Guns (SMGs) drum-firing 65 to 71x tiny 7.62mm x 25mm pistol cartridges for Maximum Rounds Start (MRS) combat firepower overmatch. 

https://1sttac.blogspot.com/2020/05/tactismart-008-brother-can-you-spare.html

The Americans Learn they Needed SARs in WW1

SGT York of the 82nd "All American" Division in WW1 had a M1903 Springfield bolt-action rifle and a .45 ACP and captured German Luger 9mm pistols to wipe-out the Germans in their trenchlines. Though the movie has some errors like actor Cooper firing his rifle twice without cycling the bolt, it accurately shows him and his men crossing "No Man's Land" and producing no enemy suppressive fire resulting in at least half the men being mowed down by German heavy machine guns. When he began rifle picking-off Germans along the trenchlines, he stays at a safe stand-off so he could operate its bolt action. A stripper clip loading is shown once, but once his 5x rifle shots were used up he WENT TO HIS SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOLS in order to fire fast enough to get the charging Germans before they got him. 

SGT York WW1 Battle Scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmRRhxo0RHc

Clearly, the Allies needed SARs so they could generate "walking fire" to suppress enemies ahead yet the British Army refused to field them, the French created bad SARs and fortunately the Germans toyed with pistols with large magazines. The American BAR arrived at WW1's end and was the game-changer that should have been upgraded with pistol grips, fluted barrels, SCLing, side or top magazine loading etc.

combatreform.org/lightmachineguns.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918_Browning_Automatic_Rifle

QUOTE:

The large amounts of ammunition expended by BAR teams in Korea placed additional demands on the assistant gunner to stay in close contact with the BAR at all times, particularly on patrols.[67] While the BAR magazines themselves always seemed to be in short supply, Gen. Marshall reported that "riflemen in the squad were markedly willing to carry extra ammunition for the BAR man".[68]

In combat, the M1918A2 frequently decided the outcome of determined attacks by North Korean and Chinese communist forces. Communist tactical doctrine centered on the mortar and machine gun, with attacks designed to envelop and cut off United Nations forces from supply and reinforcement. Communist machine gun teams were the best-trained men in any given North Korean or Chinese infantry unit, skilled at placing their heavily camouflaged and protected weapons as close to U.N. forces as possible.[69] Once concealed, they often surprised U.N. forces by opening fire at very short ranges, covering any exposed ground with a hail of accurately sighted machine gun fire.[69] Under these conditions it was frequently impossible for U.S. machine gun crews to move up their Browning M1919A4 and M1919A6 guns in response without taking heavy casualties; when they were able to do so, their position was carefully noted by the enemy, who would frequently kill the exposed gun crews with mortar or machine gun fire while they were still emplacing their guns.[69] The BAR gunner, who could stealthily approach the enemy gun position alone (and prone if need be), proved invaluable in this type of combat.[69]

During the height of combat, the BAR gunner was often used as the 'fire brigade' weapon, helping to bolster weak areas of the perimeter under heavy pressure by communist forces. In defense, it was often used to strengthen the firepower of a forward outpost.[69] Another role for the BAR was to deter or eliminate enemy sniper fire. In the absence of a trained sniper, the BAR proved more effective than the random response of five or six M1 riflemen.[69]

Compared to World War II, U.S. infantry forces saw a huge increase in the number of night engagements. The added firepower of the BAR rifleman and his ability to redeploy to 'hot spots' around the unit perimeter proved indispensable in deterring night infiltration by skirmishers as well as repelling large-scale night infantry assaults.[70]

Modernized BAR: An Ideal LMG?

As one Special Forces sergeant declared, "Many times since my three tours of duty in Vietnam I have thanked God for ... having a BAR that actually worked, as opposed to the jamming M16 ... We had a lot of Viet Cong infiltrators in all our [Special Forces] camps, who would steal weapons every chance they got. Needless to say, the most popular weapon to steal was the venerable old BAR."[71]

The bottom-magazine feed limits the size of the PRELM to 20-rounds unlike top-feed Bren, Madsen or side-feed Johnson FG42, Mle1924 SELFARs/LMGs. 

Too bad the M1918A3 doesn't fire 7.62mm x 51mm NATO... 

http://oow-govmil.com/firearms/hcar-heavy-counter-assult-rifle/

Weapon Specifications:

Weight – 11.75 pounds (16” Barrel); 12.5 pounds (20” Barrel)
Length – 38.25 in. (16” Barrel); 42.25 in. (20” Barrel)
Barrel – Chrome Moly, 4 Groove, 1/10 Twist, 5/8-24 Muzzle Thread
Barrel Length – 16” and 20” available
Caliber – .30-06
Action – Closed Bolt
Gas System – Adjustable 3 Position*
Feed System – 30rd Detachable Magazine [has bolt-hold-open when empty for speed reloading]
Maximum Effective Range – 1200m

*The Most Robust Gas System Designed By John Moses Browning Capable of Withstanding Extreme High Pressure Loads

What the Axis/Allies Should Have Done to Greatly Help Win WW2

TFB Wrong: The TOP 5 WW2 Rifles are SARs & SELFARs--NOT Bolt-Actions

SVT-40 & Accessories

Slow Rate-of-Fire, bolt-action rifles were failures at fire & movement beginning in WW1. They were obsolete before WW2 or the 2nd Round of the Great War began. Bolt-action rifles are AOK for SNIPING not fire & maneuverwhatever etc. Semi-Automatic Rifles (SARs) are automatic weapons capable of suppressing foes with automatic weapons. SELective Fire Automatic Rifles (SELFARs) can fire on full automatic, too. SELFARs can be used as LMGs albeit with sustained-fire drawbacks if cannot fire belts and are PRELMD; box magazines are small and under the action making reloading slow, barrels don't change etc.

THE TOP 5 WW2 Semi-Automatic Rifles (SARs) 

In order of quality:

1. G43, 10-shot SAR
2. KVT-40, 10-shot SAR
3. Johnson M1941, 10-shot SAR
4. M1 Garand 8-shot SAR 
5. M1 Carbine, 15-shot SAR (not the selective-firing of an intermediate cartridge, M2 Carbine which really is an Assault Rifle)

THE TOP 5 WW2 SELective Fire Automatic Rifles (SELFARs) 

In order of quality:

1. FG42 20-shot SELFAR (PRELMs & SCLS)
2. Johnson LMG 25-shot SELFAR  (PRELMs & SCLS)
3. M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) 20-shot SELFAR (PRELMs only)
4. KVT-40 selective fire variant, 10-shot SELFAR

THE TOP 5 WW2 LMGs

1. MG34 50 to 250-round belts; 75-round belt drum
2. MG42 50 to 250-round belts
3. Bren LMG top-load 30-round PRELMs
4. Mle 1924 top-load 25-round PRELMs
5. DP top-feed 47-round pan

Now that we understand what happened in WW1/WW2...let's engage in some 20-20 hind sight. Let's begin with the Axis then proceed to the Allies.

Axis PLAN A

The Germans should NOT have begin WW2 in 1939 unready--over half their Army was horse-dependent and they were stuck with Kar98 bolt-action rifles. They should have known this from their WW1 efforts to get automatic weapons to their Storm Troops. 

Axis PLAN B

German Para frustrations at Crete in 1941:

combatreform.org/hptll.htm

Made them realize they needed a SELFAR and they fielded the absolute best infantry weapon of WW2--the FG42 which could be both SCL and PRELM fed shooting full-power 7.92mm (8mm Mauser) cartridges semi or full auto. They should have ditched their Kar98s and instead equipped every squad's MG34/MG42 LMG to be surrounded by FG42s. Eventually a MG42 that could shoot FG42 PRELMs would have been fielded for instant ammunition sharing within the squad.

I question the wastage of resources building unreliable, sexy-looking, turreted Mark V Panther and Mark VI Tiger I/II heavy tanks when ALL German industry should have been mass-producing turretless STUG light tanks, Me262 jet fighters and FG42 SELFARs. If you want German "sexy", find a busty girl and dress her in black leather, civilian normies. You will have to turn off your XBOX or PS video game to do this.  

Want to join the Israeli Defense Force (IDF)?

The FG42-equipped German Army could have held off both the U.K./American and Russian Allies to obtain a conditional surrender.    

Axis PLAN C

Sorry, Stg44 fangirls, your favorite Nazi fascist fuckwads could not have won the war if they had dropped everything to make inter-mediate cartridge-shooting, Assault Rifles (ARs). Faggoty actor Brad Pitt finger-fucking a Stg44 in "Fury" doesn't make it TactiSMART if its TactiTOOLATE in 1943.    

Allies PLAN A

At WW1's end, the British should have realized American ammo resupply would be vital to the U.K.'s survival if existentially attacked and ditch .303 caliber/7.7mm rimmed ammunition for U.S. .30 caliber/1906 rimless to fire better through their Bren LMGs. SMLEs would have been re-chambered into .30/06 and made into SARs by the HAR adaptation. Jointly, they could have developed a Bren LMG that could be continuous belt or PRELM or stripper clip-fed that would have overmatched the German MG34/MG42. The French in even greater European land-continent connected danger should have either standardized in .30/06 or German "8mm" Mauser that they could capture and use against their enemies. This all could have been done in the 1920s and certainly by the '30s. The Mexican Army had a top PRELM-feed SELFAR and a LMG shooting 8mm Mauser or .30 cal/06:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100819103910/http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg86-e.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendoza_C-1934

Upgrade the M1927 Thompson and M3 Grease SMGs to fire .30 Carbine cartridges making them Assault Rifles (ARs) with at least 100 meter range reach.  

Allies PLAN B

Americans stuck with the BAR, why not create a lighter variant with side or top-magazine feed capable of 30-round magazines without busting prone firing? Flute the barrel, use plastics instead of wood to save weight. Add a pistol grip and Quick-Change barrel like the Belgian BARs had. 

Upgrade the M1927 Thompson and M3 Grease SMGs to fire .30 Carbine cartridges making them Assault Rifles (ARs) with at least 100 meter range reach. 

Allies PLAN C

If the BAR can't be upgraded, then buy lots of PRELM & SCL-fed, 25-shot, Johnson LMGs at least for the Airborne divisions as they were highly successful with the U.S./Canadian 1st SSF "Devil's Brigade" Paratroopers. These could be upgraded to fire 7.62mm x 51mm NATO when it became the alliance standard.    

What We Must Do Today: LMGs Must use same as Riflemen's PRELMs, be Continuous Belt & SCL Feeding Capable

After 8 decades, the U.S. ARMY still does not have an effective LMG in its 9-man rifle squads; 5.56mm does NOT suppress anyone especially distant open terrain desert/mountain foes and the M249 LMG MiniMi does not reliably feed from PRELMs--only belts--sort of--Navy SEAL Neil Roberts whose "SAW" jammed in Afghanistan would disagree if he were not surrounded and murdered by Taliban rebels. 

The NORth Koreans (NORKs) Type 73 LMG is either belt or PRELM fed. 

https://1sttac.blogspot.com/2020/06/futurewarthink-014-have-2x-koreas.html

There are several COTS, 7.62mm x 51mm NATO LMG designs that could be upgraded to be SCL, top/side feed PRELM and belt-feed capable that could be tested to select the very best for the U.S. ARMY to dominate and win future firefights. 

Semper Airborne!

NOTES

5 Tips on Better Full Automatic Firing

https://blog.gunassociation.org/full-auto-shoot-tips/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_30

Mass 10.6 kg (23.369 lb)
Length 1,230 mm (48 in)[3]
Barrel length 450 mm (18 in)
Cartridge 6.5×52mm Carcano 7.35×51mm Carcano (Rare)
Action Short recoil
Rate of fire 500 rds/min theoretical, 150 rds/min practical[3]
Muzzle velocity 620 metres per second (2,000 ft/s)[3]
Effective firing range 1,000 m (1,100 yd)[3]
Maximum firing range 2,800 m (3,100 yd)[3]
Feed system stripper clips of 20 rounds

The Breda 30 was rather unusual for a light machine gun. It was fed from a fixed magazine attached to the right side of the weapon and was loaded using brass or steel 20-round stripper clips. Though the magazine system was designed with the rationale that the feed lips on a detachable magazine are prone to damage, the Breda's sole magazine could also become disabled if the hinges or latches were damaged, and the slit on the top for viewing the ammunition count provided another avenue for debris to enter and jam the magazine.

In regular army units, one Breda 30 was issued to each squad (standard issue was 24 to 27 per battalion), although this was later changed to two weapons per squad. An Italian infantry company therefore had about six light machine guns in the early years of World War II (two per platoon), but this number eventually ballooned to twelve for the majority of the war (four per platoon).

An infantry platoon [section] was divided into two large sections, each of twenty men, which were further split into rifle and light machine gun squads. The section was commanded by a sergeant, who also controlled the LMG squad. The latter was made up of two Breda 30s, each manned by a corporal gunner, an assistant gunner and two ammunition bearers. The balance of the section was found in the rifle squad of eleven men. Due to the importance of its extra firepower, the Breda 30 was most often given to the squad's most reliable Soldier (unlike other armies of the time, it was not rare to see an NCO brandishing himself the squad's automatic weapon). The manual indicates that the two squads were to operate as distinct elements, with the two LMGs supporting the rifle squad onto its objective. At the time, most other armies embedded a light machine gun with each section/squad, themselves roughly half the size of the Italian squad, which by comparison seems an unwieldy organisation. [EDITOR: sounds like the current USMC infantry clusterfuck!] Individual [Personal Defense] Weapons are given as pistols for each corporal gunner, a carbine for the sergeant-major, and rifles for all others.

The Wehrmacht adopted the Breda 30 in small numbers after the occupation of Northern and Central Italy, after the Italian armistice of 1943, using the nomenclature MG 099(i); it filled a similar role as the German MG 34, a light machine gun, predominantly utilized in the Italian Campaign battlefields.

Low magazine capacity, frequent jamming and the complicated barrel-change made firing and reloading a slow and laborious process, resulting in the Breda 30 being a weapon only capable of laying down a diminutive amount of firepower and making it a very modest contributor to a firefight. When considering all of the gun's deficiencies, taken during combat when it was at its worst, the practical rate of fire of the Breda 30 could even have been comparable to a semi-automatic [rifle] weapon's practical rate of fire, as the standard American rifle was (the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine) and the later German Gewehr 43.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_24/29_light_machine_gun

Mass 8.9 kg (19.7 lb)
Length 1080 mm (42.5 in)
Barrel length 500 mm (19.5 in)
Cartridge 7.5×54mm French
Caliber 7.5mm
Barrels 1
Action Gas-operated
Bolt-link
Rate of fire 450 rpm
Muzzle velocity 830 m/s (2,722.4 ft/s)
Effective firing range 1250 m (3,937 ft)
Maximum firing range 3950 m (12,959 ft)
Feed system top-load, 25-round detachable box magazine
Sights Iron sights

The Fusil-mitrailleur Modèle 1924 M29 was the standard light machine gun of the French Army from 1925 until the 1960s and was in use until 2000-2006 with the National Gendarmerie. It fires the French 7.5×54mm round which is equivalent in ballistics and striking power to the later 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) and 7.62×54mmR round. A robust and reliable weapon partly derived from the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) action, the FM 1924 M29 soldiered on, practically without interruptions, for more than 50 years.

The FM Mle 1924 entered production in late July 1925 and saw first operational use in Morocco in May 1926. It was immediately well-received and even favorably compared in performance with the much heavier Hotchkiss machine gun. However, problems created by the new 7.5mm ammunition did appear. In particular, 8×57mm Mauser ammunition which was used in captured Mauser rifles carried by auxiliaries in Morocco during the Rif War from 1920–26, could be chambered and fired with disastrous results. This situation led to the development of a slightly shorter 7.5×54mm round, which was retained in 1929 as the standard ammunition for all future rifles and light machine guns in French service. The modified fusil-mitrailleur modèle 1924 modifié 1929 (FM Mle 1924 M29) was mass-manufactured (187,412), beginning in 1930. In addition to these newly manufactured guns some 45,530 older FM Mle 1924s, already in service after phasing out the notoriously unreliable Chauchat, were rebarreled in order to accept the newer 7.5×54mm ammunition.

Both the original fusil-mitrailleur Mle 1924 (automatic rifle, model of 1924) as well as the modified Mle 1924 M29 have the same overall features: a folding bipod, an in-line stock, a pistol grip, a top-mounted 25-round detachable magazine and a bolt hold-open after the magazine's last round had been fired. There are two separate triggers: the trigger in front for using semi-automatic fire only and the rear trigger for firing on full automatic. Protection of all the openings against mud and dust proved excellent. The cyclic rate was controlled at 450 rounds per minute, thus allowing more continuous firing without overheating. In general, this new weapon was accurate and highly reliable but the barrel was screwed well into the receiver, as in the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), and thus it could not be separated quickly and easily in the field as for the British Bren gun. The French Army instruction manual (July 1925) recommends not to go beyond 400 rounds of uninterrupted firing since at that point the gun needs to be given a pause of ten to fifteen minutes in order to cool off. But instead, the French instruction manual recommends the following routine for the FM 1924 : fire 4 to 5 detachable magazines (100 to 125 rounds), take a short pause, then keep repeating that same restrained fire plus short pause routine which permits steady performance and very extensive firing periods.

The FM 24/29 was the standard squad-level automatic weapon of the French infantry and cavalry at the start of World War II. After the French surrender in World War II, the Germans captured large quantities of this weapon, which they used operationally until the end of the war.

From 1943 on, as the French army was re-equipped and reorganized in North Africa with Allied support, the FM 24/29 was kept in service, as French troops considered it superior to the Browning Automatic Rifle.

The FM 24/29 was the workhorse in the First Indochina War and served in the armed forces until after the end of the war in Algeria.[1] It was replaced by the AA-52 general-purpose machine gun in the 1960s, but it was still in use with National Gendarmerie regional brigades until 2000-2006.

****

Crap 5.56mm Does NOT Suppress--BIG USMC Doesn't Get This--LITTLE MARSOC Talks out of Both Sides of Their Mouths--Praising BS M249 LMG in anemic 5.56mm--Yet is Getting Mk.48 7.62mm LMGs--Can a marine NOT lie about something?

If the morons are worried about weapon length; GET A BULLPUP.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/23/marine-raiders-dont-want-any-m27s/

Your marine corps

marine Raiders don’t want any M27s
Shawn Snow
February 23, 2018

While thousands of grunts across the marine corps will soon be scrapping their M4s for the new, more powerful M27 rifles, don’t expect the Raiders to follow suit.

The marine corps Forces Special Operations Command is taking a pass on the M27 after reviewing the new automatic rifle during its initial development. Simply put, the "elite" marines were not impressed with the rifle’s ability plug any existing gaps in fire power and they found the weapon’s 16-inch barrel too long.

“As of right now, the M27 doesn’t provide an additional capability or advantage over the M4A1 with SOCOM upper receiver group as the standard rifle carried by Raiders,” Maj. Nicholas Mannweiler, a marine corps Special Operations Command spokesman, told marine corps Times.

The development comes as Gen. Robert B. Neller, the Commandant of the marine corps, is pushing to replace the M4 with the M27 within the infantry forces.

The M27, also known as the infantry automatic rifle, or IAR, was originally developed to replace the heavy, belt-fed M249 squad automatic weapon, or SAW, with a lighter, more portable automatic weapon system for the infantry.

Now, the marines’ use of the M27 is expanding to replace the M4 as the standard issued rifle to be carried by grunts because many marine corps officials believe the M27’s long barrel affords longer range and better accuracy than the M4.

But the Raiders won’t be using it at all. That’s in part due to the difference in mission sets between the grunts and marines with Special Operations Command.

The M27 isn’t compatible with the Raiders’ need to field a shorter barrel and the IAR’s volume of fire isn’t suitable to how MARSOC employs its Raiders on the battlefield.

“Given the smaller size of our operational units, the M249′s volume of fire provides a greater tactical benefit than the advantages provided by the M27,” Mannweiler said.

And concerns about the barrel length is partly about tactics and how Raiders operate in confined urban environments or tight ship corridors.

“The maneuverability and handling of the weapon in a confined space like a ship during VBSS [visit, board, search and seizure], or a tight building is benefited greatly with the shorter barrel,” a former Raider told marine corps Times.

“Have to think of the added five inches you get with a suppressor, which has become and will continue to be SOP [standard operating procedure] for the foreseeable future. You throw a six-inch suppressor on the end of a 16-inch IAR, and you pretty much have a medieval pike.”

marine special operators have a wide variety of mission sets beyond maritime ship interdictions and close quarters battle. That means the marine commandos need a flexible carbine that can match specific operations.

Currently Raiders use an M4 lower receiver, which is the trigger and housing, attached to a SOCOM-issued upper receiver, or barrel and bolt. This allows operators to mix and match their weapon system to meet various mission needs.

“If we need to do shorter suppressed barrels, that’s an option. If we need to have a certain number of weapons within a team or company configured for designated marksman duties, we can do that too,” Mannweiler explained. “But the incompatibility issues between the SOCOM upper receiver group and the M27 lower receiver present an obstacle.”

On top of that, the Raiders are already rocking relatively new equipment.

The upper receivers are only a few years old and are replaced regularly, according to a former Raider. And the commando unit is fielding a 7.62 mm caliber version of the SAW called the Mk48 “that is brand new and no one is looking to replace, plus we have a surrogate or partner nation force with us to increase fire capacity to go with CAS [close air support].”

But, not all is lost. The Raiders are interested in the M38, which is the designated marksman version of the M27. The M38 was borne out of M27 as the Corps was looking for a rifle that could hit targets at distances of 600 yards or more, a lesson learned from operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Unfortunately, the same problem with the M38 exists — SOCOM upper receiver groups are not compatible with an M27 lower receiver.

And “testing is still needed to determine if the M27/M38 outperforms our current model M4A1 with USSOCOM upper receiver group,” Mannweiler said.


MARSOC will continue to monitor developments of the M27/M38 and may field it in the future.